captioning funded by cbs and ford-- built for the road ahead. >> couric: defense secretary robert gates has served eight administrations, but what he saw from president obama two weeks ago will always stand out. >> i've worked for a lot of these guys, and this is one of the most courageous calls, decisions that i think i've ever seen a president make. >> couric: robert gates has always been a straight shooter, and he doesn't hesitate to

criticize his own pentagon. >> i think the hardest thing for me to deal with is leading a department that is organized to plan for war, but not to fight a war. >> logan: amrullah saleh was afghanistan's chief of intelligence, and one of america's best sources of information on al qaeda after the attacks on 9/11. he's not surprised that bin laden was found and killed in pakistan. in fact, he says he told pakistan's president bin laden was hiding in that area years ago. >> you have to give pakistan a title. is it a friend? what is pakistan? >> logan: it currently has the title of "ally." >> right-- deceptive. >> logan: so you think its title should be? >> it should be a hostile country, a hostile state. >> pitts: this is jerry kane, a member of an antigovernment movement known as sovereign

citizens. >> i don't want to have to kill anybody. >> pitts: kane did kill-- two police officers over a simple traffic stop. the f.b.i. now lists the group among the nation's top domestic terror threats. there are an estimated 300,000 sovereign citizens. alfred adask is one of them. you said, "we have the right to keep and bear arms in order to shoot our own politicians, to shoot the police, to shoot your local government officials, your state officials, your president, your congressman, your senators." >> yep. >> i'm steve kroft. >> i'm lesley stahl. >> i'm katie couric. >> i'm lara logan. >> i'm byron pitts. >> i'm scott pelley. those stories tonight on "60 minutes." [ male announcer ] your hard work has paid off. and you want to pass along as much as possible

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>> couric: it's not at all unusual to hear the pentagon being criticized for its bloat, bureaucracy, and spending binges. but what is surprising about the latest criticism is that it doesn't come from an outsider with an antimilitary agenda; it comes from the secretary of defense himself. robert gates has an impressive resume with more than 30 years of government service, and he's just announced he's retiring next month. at the pentagon, the defense secretary is called "sec def." the title he might prefer is "the soldiers' secretary," because he says his top priority is the men and women in uniform-- a priority, he says, that's often neglected by the pentagon bureaucracy.

but first, we wanted to learn more about the special forces raid that killed osama bin laden, and what was going through the secretary's mind as he watched it unfold with the president in the white house situation room. >> secretary robert gates: it was a perfect fusion of intelligence collection, intelligence analysis, and military operations. >> couric: having said that, you were a nervous wreck? >> gates: yes. >> couric: what were you thinking as you watched this unfold in the situation room with all those other people, like the president and vice president and secretary of state? >> gates: well, i think, like the rest, i was just transfixed. and, of course, my heart went to my mouth when the helicopter landed in the courtyard, because i knew that wasn't part of the plan. but these guys were just amazing. >> couric: after the mission, secretary gates went to meet personally with the seal team. >> gates: i joked with them a little bit. i said, "you guys have spent the last several days being

debriefed. would you like to debrief me on what happened in washington, while we were all watching you all?" and we had some good laughs over that. but obviously, an amazing, amazing group of people. >> couric: you are the ultimate soldier's secretary, and i can't imagine the pride you must have felt meeting these young men. >> gates: it was awesome. >> couric: but while he had confidence in the seals before the mission, gates told us, he was very nervous about the intel. >> gates: i was very concerned, frankly. i... i had real reservations about the intelligence. my worry was the level of uncertainty about whether bin laden was even in the compound. there wasn't any direct evidence that he was there. it was all circumstantial. but it was the best information that we had since probably 2001. >> couric: and did you feel you had to strike while the iron was hot, if you will? >> gates: i think... i think everybody agreed that we needed

to act, and... and act pretty promptly. >> couric: especially, gates says, president obama, the eighth commander-in-chief he has served. >> gates: i've worked for a lot of these guys. and this is one of the most courageous calls, decisions that i think i've ever seen a president make, for all of the concerns that i've just been talking about: the uncertainty of the intelligence; the consequences of it going bad; the risk to the lives of the americans involved. it was a very gutsy call. >> couric: you could see it in his face, in that photograph. what was it like being near him in that room? >> gates: let's just say there wasn't a lot of conversation, by anybody in the room. >> couric: secretary gates says the death of bin laden, seen here in his compound before the assault, could end up being a "game changer" in the war in afghanistan, partly because the al qaeda leader won't be around

to obstruct a possible deal with the taliban. >> gates: if we keep the military pressure on, and continue to hold what we seized over the last year and expand the security envelope, a change in the relationship between al qaeda and the taliban could, in fact, this fall or winter, create the circumstances where a reconciliation process could go forward. >> couric: what would you say to the majority of americans who say, "now, we've got bin laden; now it's time for the troops to come home"? >> gates: i would say that we... we are getting the upper hand. we have, over the last 18 months, put in place, for the first time, the resources necessary to ensure that this threat does not rebuild, does not reemerge once we're gone. i think we could be in a position by the end of this year where we have turned the corner in afghanistan. >> couric: and more troops could come home? >> gates: and more troops could come home. >> couric: you don't see the

troop withdrawal, though, being accelerated this summer because of bin laden's death? >> gates: i think it's premature. i think we just don't know. it's only been a week. ( laughs ) and people are already drawing historical conclusions. i think that's a little quick. >> couric: in his own history of more than 30 years of government service, robert gates has developed a reputation of being diplomatic but direct in his relationships with both foreign leaders and presidents. we talked about that on a flight from riyadh to baghdad inside the "silver bullet," gates' airborne office, an airstream trailer strapped to the floor of one of his military planes, a c- 17. >> welcome to the bullet. >> couric: we asked about the meeting he had just had in saudi arabia with king abdullah. >> gates: i don't pull any punches, and neither does he, and... and it goes back to the very first time i ever met him. and i said, "you know, i'm an old c.i.a. guy. i'm not a diplomat, so i'm just

going to tell you what i think and you tell me what you think, and maybe that's a better way to go forward." >> couric: and did he like that? >> gates: yeah, absolutely. >> couric: robert gates started in the c.i.a. as an analyst in the '60s, and he worked his way up the intelligence ladder in the johnson, nixon, ford, and carter administrations. he has spent years studying highly classified and frequently disturbing information. what scares you the most? what worries you? >> gates: i think what i-- and most of us-- would say, it would be a terrorist with a weapon of mass destruction. >> couric: in this country, or anywhere in the world? >> gates: well, anywhere, but especially in this country. >> couric: how likely is that? >> gates: for years, we've... we've received intelligence that they're trying to acquire a weapon of mass destruction. so far, they've been singularly unsuccessful, as far as we know. but it is the one thing that... that could be a huge challenge.

>> mr. gates, do you believe that we are currently winning in iraq? >> gates: no, sir. >> couric: robert gates surprised the senate when he said that after president george w. bush nominated him to be defense secretary. but five years later, as we talked at the u.s. military headquarters in baghdad, across from one of saddam hussein's old palaces, secretary gates told us the u.s. military surge-- the much-debated and criticized deployment of 30,000 additional troops to iraq-- turned the situation around. >> gates: i think, had we left here with our tail between our legs and with chaos, it would have been... it would have been very bad for our army and for our military. >> couric: but gates warns it could all fall apart after the scheduled american withdrawal at the end of the year. and as he took one of his last helicopter rides over baghdad,

he urged the u.s. congress to fund state department programs in iraq after the u.s. military leaves. >> gates: my worry is that we'll be penny wise and pound foolish; that we will have spent hundreds of billions, maybe a trillion dollars here, over 4,000 lives, 30,000 wounded-- we're like we're on the two-yard line, and i'd hate to see us not get across the goal line. and it's the state department that's going to take us across the goal line. >> couric: after the bush presidency, president obama asked robert gates to stay on to manage the war in afghanistan. he became the first defense secretary to serve under presidents from both parties. is this the hardest job you've ever had? >> gates: absolutely. we have been at war in two places every single day i've been secretary of defense. and i've been secretary of defense longer than world war ii lasted, longer than the civil war lasted.

so it's been tough. >> couric: when you look back on these two major wars that you have had the responsibility to oversee, what sticks in your craw? what do you regret? >> gates: i think the hardest thing for me to deal with is... is leading a department that is organized to plan for war, but not to fight a war. and so, everything that i've wanted to do to try and help the men and women in the field, i've had to do outside the normal pentagon bureaucracy. and i've had to be directly involved on a week-to-week basis to make sure that it got done. that's been very frustrating. >> couric: case in point: the humvees that roadside bombs turned into death traps for u.s. troops. in iraq, they were eventually replaced by lifesaving million- dollar armored vehicles called m-raps. >> gates: my attitude was, if

you're in a war and kids' lives are at stake, you're all in. you do whatever's necessary to protect them and help them accomplish their mission. and if you've got this stuff left over at the end, then so be it. >> couric: you also... >> gates: you also have left over a lot of living kids. >> couric: gates eventually spent $40 billion to buy new m-raps, vehicles he says ended up preventing thousands of american deaths and injuries. he also battled the pentagon bureaucracy over what's called the "golden hour," the time it takes to get a wounded soldier from the battlefield to a hospital. >> gates: the medical bureaucrats told me that, in afghanistan, two hours was okay. and i said, "i beg your pardon?" actually, i didn't say that, but... ( laughs ) >> couric: something a little stronger? >> gates: something a little stronger. i said, "you know, if i'm a soldier and i've been shot, i want to have the same expectation that i did when i was deployed in iraq-- that i'm going to be picked up in an hour."

so now, the average rescue time in afghanistan is about 40 minutes. >> couric: robert gates has used the same tell-it-like-it-is style in his office at the pentagon, where he works flanked by portraits of his two favorite no-nonsense generals, dwight eisenhower and george c. marshall. you've ruffled a few feathers here at the pentagon during your tenure. >> gates: well, i've ruffled a few feathers at all the institutions i've led. but i think that's part of the... that's part of leadership. one of my favorite little sayings is, "to avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." >> couric: he's canceled tens of billions of dollars' worth of expensive weapons programs and infuriated the air force when he stopped production of its cherished f-22 raptor. there was a lot of fat here at the pentagon, in your estimation? >> gates: i think it is self- evident in the respect that the budget of the pentagon almost doubled during the last decade,

but our capabilities didn't particularly expand. a lot of that money went into infrastructure and overhead, and, frankly, i think a culture that... that had an open checkbook. and so that's what we had to change. >> couric: the secretary also says the pentagon is stuck in a 20th-century time warp, just like the aging 747 he flew to and from the middle east. it can be refueled in midair and has a shield to protect its electronics from a nuclear attack-- a product of cold war thinking, just like pentagon war planning, according to gates. he went to west point this year and said it's time to change. >> gates: in my opinion, any future defense secretary who advises the president to again send a big american land army into asia or into the middle east or africa should have his head examined, as general macarthur so delicately put it.

things go wrong, and things don't develop as you anticipate. and... and young men and women die. and... and so, i think... i... i wrote in my book a long time ago that the dirty little secret in washington was that the biggest doves wore uniforms, that those who were the most skeptical of military action were the military. and now, i understand better what i wrote, because i feel the same way. i'm much more cautious now, because i see the consequences, and i also see the unpredictability. this brigade lost 100 soldiers during the surge. >> couric: gates keeps a daily tally of the men and women who have died in iraq and afghanistan, and, on every trip, always makes time to visit with the troops. >> gates: my highest priority in the nearly four and a half years i've had this job is to get you

what you need to complete your mission and come home safely. i've said kind of all along that i think of them as my own sons and daughters. thank you for your service. it's because i send them. i'm the guy that signs the piece of paper that sends them here. i'm the guy that signs the condolence letters. i'm the guy that visits them in the hospitals. they just... it's very emotional for me. they are the best. >> couric: what do you say in those letters? what can you say? >> gates: i swore i would never let any of them become a statistic for me. so with each condolence letter that i write, i get a packet of hometown news accounts of that individual, as well as a picture.

and i get to read what their coaches and their parents and their brothers and their sisters say about them. so i feel like i... i know them. in some ways, it makes the job harder. but... but i want the parents or the wives or spouses to know that... that i care about every single one of them. >> couric: we'll have more of our interview with secretary gates tomorrow on the "cbs evening news." >> cbs money watch update sponsored by: >> mitchell: good evening. the head of the international monetary fund, come -- domonique strauss kahn, was charged with sexual assault after his arrest in new york city. sony restarted its playstation network today three weeks after massive hacker attack, and "thor" won the weekend box office. i'm russ mitchell, cbs news.

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>> logan: the news that osama bin laden had been hiding in plain sight in a pakistani military town surprised many americans, but it came as no surprise to the man you'll hear from tonight. his name is amrullah saleh, and four years ago he told pakistan's president that bin laden was living in that very area. at the time, saleh was at the height of his power as

afghanistan's top spy, their chief of intelligence. no one worked more closely with the u.s. in the fight against al qaeda and the taliban. he's also one of pakistan's fiercest critics, and, long before bin laden's death, behind closed doors he was urging the u.s. to pay attention to the intelligence he was gathering on pakistan's covert support for america's enemies. tonight he makes that case publicly. >> amrullah saleh: you have to give pakistan a title. is it a friend? what is pakistan? >> logan: it currently has the title of "ally." >> saleh: right-- deceptive. >> logan: so you think its title should be? >> saleh: it should be a hostile country, a hostile state. >> logan: so pakistan is the enemy of the u.s.? >> saleh: the amount of pain pakistan has inflicted upon the united states in the past 12 years is unprecedented. no other country has inflicted

that amount of pain upon your nation. >> logan: when you say "pain," what do you mean specifically? >> saleh: i mean, they generate fear for your country. they take your money; they do not cooperate; they created the taliban; they are number one in nuclear proliferation. you name it-- every pain u.s. has in that part of the world, the hub of that is pakistan. >> logan: that may sound harsh considering what president obama told steve kroft on "60 minutes" last week. >> president barack obama: pakistan, since 9/11, has been a strong counterterrorism partner with us. >> logan: while he acknowledged pakistan has helped in fighting al qaeda, the president also said the relationship has problems. and according to amrullah saleh, the biggest problem is pakistan giving safe haven to taliban leaders. >> saleh: the senior taliban leaders, we... we would learn about their locations every day.

we would have their telephone numbers. >> logan: you had their telephone numbers? >> saleh: absolutely. >> logan: and you passed those to the u.s.? >> saleh: sure. >> logan: saleh says many of those numbers were traced here to quetta, pakistan, where the taliban's senior leaders, known as the quetta shura, are based. was any action ever taken against them? >> saleh: not against quetta shura, never. >> logan: the u.s. could have taken action against senior taliban leadership? >> saleh: they can take action tomorrow against... >> logan: they still can? >> saleh: of course. >> logan: and they don't? >> saleh: they don't. that's why i say the surge is not addressing the fundamental question: what do you do with sanctuaries in pakistan? >> congressman mike rogers: amrullah is actually a friend of mine. >> logan: congressman mike rogers is chairman of the house intelligence committee that helps oversee all of america's intelligence agencies.

he echoed what president obama has said, and told us that pakistan has arrested hundreds of terrorists in cities across the country over the last ten years. rogers also confirmed what amrullah saleh said about the taliban's senior leaders operating from quetta, pakistan. >> rogers: no doubt about it, for far too long. it was one of those, i think, arranged tradeoffs for other bits of cooperation. and remember, this is... >> logan: so the u.s. knew that and accepted it? >> rogers: well, they knew that they weren't being aggressive there. it didn't stop c.i.a.'s interest in trying to determine exactly who, what, when, where in quetta, which is-- you've been there, i've been there-- it's a difficult place to operate under any circumstances. >> logan: why doesn't the u.s. say to pakistan, "if you don't go after the afghan taliban's leadership, the quetta shura, we're going to do it"? >> rogers: well, that's a great point. many pressed the administration to do just that. and there's been a constant debate, certainly on the intelligence committee, about how far we go.

>> logan: do you consider pakistan a good ally, a strong ally? >> rogers: i would say pakistan is an ally. there's serious challenges there, and "ally" may be too strong a word. we... we have yet to clearly define with each other that our national interests coincide. >> logan: amrullah saleh says pakistan goes after some of america's enemies while protecting others. it's a problem u.s. military and political leaders have raised repeatedly with their pakistani counterparts. there was a time when saleh and pakistan fought against a common enemy-- the soviets, who occupied afghanistan during the 1980s. this is saleh in a bbc documentary we found from 20 years ago. at the age of 19, he was already a seasoned war veteran, in charge of rebuilding villages bombed in the fighting. like many afghans, saleh was born into war and grew up dirt- poor.

his experience and intellect and hatred for the taliban's extremist views helped his rapid rise to the powerful position of intelligence chief when he was just 32. he quit the afghan government last summer, but his reputation still opens doors for him in washington today. when we saw him on his last trip, he had just met with some of the most senior people in the u.s. government responsible for afghan policy. >> saleh: i asked a u.s. politician today. i said, "how do you explain to americans that we give billions to pakistan, and pakistan, in return, supports the taliban, and the taliban, in return, yesterday killed six american soldiers?" >> logan: and what did this politician say? >> saleh: his answer was not satisfactory. >> logan: what was it? >> saleh: he said, "well, we know this." >> logan: and no one does anything about it? >> saleh: exactly. >> logan: while american soldiers come home in body bags?

>> saleh: yes. yes. >> logan: when we went to the front lines in eastern afghanistan last summer, we found u.s. commanders there shared amrullah saleh's concerns about pakistan. over three weeks, the american units we were with were attacked again and again. here, soldiers from the 101st airborne division are fighting their way out of an ambush not far from the pakistani border. they told us that, as fast as they kill their enemy, they are replaced with new fighters pouring over the border in a seemingly endless supply. >> lt. commander j.b. vowell: most of the people we are fighting are from pakistan. >> logan: lieutenant commander j.b. vowell lost 17 soldiers over the past year. he told us his forces killed hundreds of fighters in constant battles, but you can't defeat an

enemy that has safe haven over the border. how significant is that to the strength of the enemy? >> vowell: it's very. freedom of movement and maneuver is sacrosanct. once you have that, all things are possible. >> logan: and that's what they have inside pakistan? >> vowell: they have a lot of that inside pakistan. >> logan: do you think the u.s. should be more aggressive with pakistan? >> rogers: i do believe we have to be more aggressive. you can't put soldiers in harm's way and not be aggressive with where the enemies we know are threatening our soldiers and our country reside. >> logan: what do you think is the most egregious thing the pakistanis have done in this relationship with the u.s.? >> rogers: i think they have disclosed operations that we have shared with them. i know that to be true. i think they've held back information that they could've possibly given us. we know that to be true. we have to negotiate even now to get access to the... to the wives of bin laden. they've been playing a funny game with us, i think for internal political consumption more so than in reality.

>> logan: and even now, in the wake of bin laden's death? >> rogers: yeah. they haven't been fully cooperative yet. i imagine that they will get there. >> logan: it took pakistan more than a week to get there, and so far they've only allowed the u.s. limited access to the wives, under the supervision of pakistan's intelligence service. amrullah saleh believes pakistan should now deliver other high- value targets. mike rogers agrees. >> rogers: i hope they see this as an opportunity to be more cooperative, to be more open, to help us with other targets that we have in pakistan that we're very interested in having apprehended and brought to justice. >> logan: such as al qaeda's number two. >> rogers: zawahiri is a great example. i believe he's in pakistan. >> logan: al qaeda's leaders and the taliban have been trying to

kill amrullah saleh for years. when we first met him at afghanistan's intelligence headquarters in kabul in 2009, he was living under constant threat of assassination. >> saleh: i am a very, very legitimate target. and if they kill me, i have told my family and my friends not to complain about anything, because i have killed many of them with pride. >> logan: today, even though he's out of the government, he still travels all over the country campaigning for the defeat of al qaeda and the taliban, and he's still a marked man. >> saleh: i was ambushed three times after resigning. >> logan: after resigning? >> saleh: yes. when i was traveling, i was ambushed. the convoy i was traveling with was ambushed. >> logan: are you worried about your own survival? >> saleh: no. no. there is a cause. and if the... in pursuance of that cause, i embrace death. it will be a dignified death. >> logan: the death of osama bin laden deep inside pakistan

didn't surprise amrullah saleh, because he'd been making that case for years. saleh says he confronted former president pervez musharraf back in 2007. he told him afghan intelligence believed bin laden was in the pakistani city of mansehra. saleh told us musharraf was so offended that he lunged at him, and afghan president hamid karzai had to intervene. it turns out mansehra is just 12 miles from where osama bin laden was eventually found. so i was the guy who was never going to have the heart attack.

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>> pitts: tonight, a story about a group of americans you've likely never heard of. they're called "sovereign citizens." many don't pay taxes, carry a driver's license, or hold a social security card. they have little regard for the police or the courts. some have become violent. the f.b.i. lists them among the nation's top domestic terror threats. by some estimates, there are as many as 300,000 sovereign citizens in the u.s. and with the sluggish economy and mortgage mess, their ranks are growing. it's just the kind of movement that attracts people like jerry

kane. a divorced, out-of-work truck driver from ohio, kane became a sovereign citizen in 2003 when he lost his house to foreclosure. to earn a living, he and his son began crisscrossing the country peddling a debt reduction scam. kane promised that by tapping into an imaginary government account, people could achieve financial salvation. >> jerry kane: it fits in all kinds of situations. it doesn't matter what we're talking about-- traffic ticket, i.r.s., mortgage, credit card, hospital bill, child support, whatever it is. >> pitts: by 2009, jerry kane's self-confidence and trademark white jacket could only mask reality. in truth, he was flat broke. his debt elimination seminars were a bust. as a sovereign citizen, kane didn't carry a driver's license. his car was registered to a bogus charity. traffic stops led to arrests. and with each one, jerry kane's anger towards authority

deepened. >> kane: i don't want to have to kill anybody. but if they keep messing with me, that's what it's going to have to come out, that's what it's going to come down to, is i'm going to have to kill. and if i have to kill one, then i'm not going to be able to stop. >> pitts: absorbing it all was kane's 16-year-old son, joe, home schooled and raised on sovereign ideology. >> joe kane: who all here has been to school? so you know what it means when i say "take one and pass it back"? >> pitts: may 20, 2010: the kane's minivan was pulled over on i-40 by two west memphis, arkansas, police officers. a dashboard camera captured what happened next. kane got out of the van. he appeared argumentative. instead of a license, he handed over a document declaring his sovereignty. the officer seemed confused by it. then, a scuffle. young joe kane jumped from the van and began firing an ak-47. 58 seconds later, as the kanes

prepared to flee, the teenager fired four more times. a truck driver called 9-1-1. >> hello, 9-1-1. where is your emergency? >> exit 275 on 40. these guys just shot a police officer right on the exit. >> bob paudert: i heard a call go out on my radio: "two officers down at the mile marker 275." >> pitts: west memphis police chief bob paudert-- that's him in the white shirt-- was among the first to arrive. one officer lay motionless on the roadway. a second was in a ditch. fellow cops came to his aid. >> paudert: they kept saying, "bill, you're going to be okay. bill, you're going to be okay." well, i knew then it was bill evans. and i ran down the hill to bill. he was wounded very badly. and as i started up the incline, a sergeant was there, and he stopped me. he said, "chief, please don't go up there." i said, "is it brandon?" he said, "yes." >> pitts: brandon is sergeant brandon paudert, the chief's 39- year-old son.

>> paudert: i went up there. and brandon was lying on his back with his gun still in his right hand, clutched in his hand. >> pitts: brandon paudert died instantly from a bullet to the head. bill evans was declared dead at a hospital. they had taken 25 bullets between them. the police cornered jerry and joe kane 90 minutes later. the kanes wounded two more lawmen before they were killed in a wal-mart parking lot. prior to may 20, 2010, did you know anything about sovereign citizens? >> paudert: never heard the term. i called around, byron, talked to many departments. nobody knew about sovereign citizens. i want to remind all of you about this sovereign citizens group. >> pitts: today the sovereign citizens are bob paudert's obsession. at roll call on a day we were with him, he stressed the importance of knowing who they are and the dangers they pose. >> paudert: if brandon and bill had known these were sovereign citizens, they would be with us today. they didn't know. >> pitts: what is a sovereign citizen?

>> j.j. macnab: sovereign citizen, in its simplest form, believes that he is above the law. >> pitts: j.j. macnab has been studying sovereign citizens for a decade. she has testified before congress, and is writing a book about the movement. >> macnab: he has a twisted sense of history, and he thinks that people who lived in the 18th century were free of all legal constraints. and they want to return to that time now. >> pitts: jerry and joe kane were part of an antigovernment movement whose roots date back to the racist posse comitatus of the 1970s and the montana freemen of the '90s. convicted oklahoma city bomber terry nichols was a sovereign citizen. and tax filings by actor wesley snipes, convicted of tax evasion in 2008, include numerous examples of sovereign language. >> macnab: average sovereign citizen today is 30, 35, and is in economic dire straits. they've probably lost their job. they've probably lost the wife. >> pitts: paranoid? >> macnab: many are.

>> pitts: conspiracy theorists? >> macnab: most are. >> alfred adask: do you trust the government? i would argue that it's un- american to trust the government. >> pitts: alfred adask has been a sovereign citizen for 28 years. he's what's called a "sovereign guru," one of the movement's leading voices. a roofer by trade, adask once published a magazine critical of the legal system. why is the sovereign citizen movement growing? >> adask: what's driving people to it is, they're beginning to understand that the government has moved away from fundamental principles that this nation was built on. where are the limits in limited government? the sovereignty movement is attempting to rediscover those limits and reassert them. >> pitts: you're eligible for social security? >> adask: yes, sir. >> pitts: do you collect? >> adask: no. >> pitts: why not? >> adask: if you take these benefits, you wind up being in the status of the subject rather than a sovereign. >> pitts: you pay taxes? >> adask: when they're due. you don't necessarily... it's not true that everyone has to pay taxes. >> pitts: has the i.r.s. ever

come after you for back taxes? >> adask: yes. >> pitts: did you pay? >> adask: no. >> pitts: you don't like this government very much, do you? >> adask: i think the government has gone far beyond its constitutional limits. they think, "hey, we're not... we're the government. we can do anything." and some people are saying, "no, i don't think you can." >> pitts: adask, like other sovereign gurus, shares his views on the internet. with no formal organization to join, dues to pay, or leaders to elect, the sovereign citizen movement exists largely online, where ideology is discussed in chat rooms and on web sites. jerry kane had his own web site, and today there are plenty more. >> you were born free; now can live free. >> you always have the option to reject their governance, and therefore escape tyranny. >> because it's your life, and the power is really in the people. >> pitts: in addition to sites featuring sovereign i.d.s, phony vehicle registration and license tags, people can watch an endless stream of mind-numbing

seminars on how, with just the right paperwork, you, too, can beat the system. >> macnab: you can't really believe in what they peddle unless you've turned off a common sense switch. they think that if they sign documents in red crayons, it takes them out of the jurisdiction of the court. >> pitts: red crayon? >> macnab: some do, yeah. they think that if they sign their name on an angle or put a thumb print in blood... i mean, i can come up with several hundred of these examples that sound ludicrous to someone outside. to the people within the movement, they make perfect sense. >> pitts: but when those efforts to beat the system fail, a sovereign citizen will often seek retribution. the weapon of choice is paper. for example, when a sovereign has a run-in with the law, they might file a lien or financial claim against the personal assets of the police officer or the judge involved. it's easy to file; you don't even need a lawyer. the sovereign never collects, but the target of the lien can have their credit ruined.

the practice has been called "paper terrorism." >> robert vosper: i have liens against me in three states in this country for a half a billion dollars. >> pitts: half a billion dollars, with a "b"? >> vosper: yep. >> pitts: robert vosper is the town justice in tiny rosendale, new york. he thought there was something odd about a defendant named richard ulloa, who appeared in his courtroom over a misdemeanor traffic offense. ulloa refused to cooperate during his arraignment, so vosper set bail. and that's when ulloa inundated vosper's court with paper. >> vosper: if a layperson looked at it, you would say, "boy, this guy's pretty good. look at all the law in here." >> pitts: but you looked at it and thought what? >> vosper: gobbledygook. >> pitts: eventually, ulloa and two other sovereign citizens filed liens against judge vosper and other local officials in excess of $1.24 trillion. the three men were convicted on federal mail fraud charges. but when vosper learned one of them had contacts with associates of jerry kane of the

west memphis shooting, he increased security at the courthouse and took some personal measures. >> vosper: i've been a justice for 20 years. i worked 30 years in the penitentiary system. i'm scared. >> pitts: but you're a guy from queens. you don't scare easy, right? >> vosper: no. 30 years in the penitentiary, i never felt i had to carry a weapon. i've been carrying a weapon for a year and a half. >> pitts: because of your encounter with this sovereign citizen? >> vosper: yeah. i've slept with a gun under my mattress for the last year and a half. >> pitts: another reason for vosper's concern is the marked increase in violence associated with sovereign citizens, much of it directed at police and judges. a south carolina sovereign citizen awaits execution for killing two lawmen in a standoff. in texas, a sovereign faces attempted capital murder charges in the shooting of three men, two of them sheriff's deputies. and an alaska sovereign citizen and five others are charged with plotting to kill two judges, state troopers, and an i.r.s. agent. alfred adask told us he's never

advocated violence. yet listen to what he said on his internet radio show. >> adask: we do not have the right to keep and bear arms so we can go duck hunting. we have the right to keep and bear arms in order to shoot our own politicians. >> pitts: you said, "we have the right to keep and bear arms in order to shoot our own politicians. we have the right to keep and bear arms to shoot the police, to shoot your local government officials, your state officials, your president, your congressman, your senators." >> adask: yeah. >> pitts: what did you mean by that? >> adask: i'm simply saying one of the ways you prevent the misconstruction or abuse of the powers of the constitution is by letting the people in washington understand that you are armed. that's the idea behind this. it's saying, "look, we're armed down here. don't mess with us." >> pitts: in this current atmosphere, after the shooting in arizona where a federal judge was killed, five other people were killed, a u.s. congressman was injured, and 12 other people were shot and injured, some people might find your remarks troubling.

>> adask: yeah, some people might. you know, i find it troubling that the government would try to restrict our right to keep and bear arms. the threat of violence is required, because they will not listen. the system will not listen to people like me unless there are other people that back me up who have guns. >> paudert: obviously, the guy's crazy. and i think he ought to be brought up on charges. i know that we have a first amendment right, freedom of speech. but how far can you take that first amendment before it becomes inflammatory and... to the point of being treasonous? it's difficult to stand up here and talking about your son being killed... >> pitts: in the year since the shooting, bob paudert has been traveling the country, training law enforcement officers on how to identify a sovereign citizen, and how to avoid trouble should they encounter one. >> paudert: it's a mission for me. who better to deliver the message than someone who has lost so much? >> pitts: sovereign citizens have a history of going after law enforcement who give them a

hard time. >> paudert: oh, i hope they do. if they want to come after me, i'm very easy to find: the police chief in west memphis, arkansas, seven miles west of memphis. if they want to come after me, i have absolutely no problem with it, and might even like it. >> go to 60minutesovertime.com to hear more about the sovereign citizen movement. sponsored by viagra. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] you've reached the age where you don't back down from a challenge. this is the age of knowing how to make things happen. so, why would you let something like erectile dysfunction get in your way? isn't it time you talked to your doctor about viagra? 20 million men already have. with every age comes responsibility. ask your doctor if your heart is healthy enough for sex.

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